Interrogation is Not Torture: The Closing of Gitmo - Instablogs
Interrogation is Not Torture: The Closing of Gitmo
Steve Swint , Baltimore: Jan 23 2009
Made Popular Jan 24 2009
United States :

Interrogation is Not Torture: The Closing of Gitmo

Driving into work today I was listening to a local radio station and every 20 minutes or so they give the news headlines. One of this morning’s headlines was a doozy, “Barack Obama, yesterday, signed an executive order stopping the torture of terror suspects...” I literally yelled at my radio. Whatever happened to truth in journalism, to accuracy and honesty? Listen people, it is fairly common knowledge that torture occurred in the Bush administration, but that depends on what your definition of torture is. Waterboarding, in my book, is likely torture. Waterboarding ended something like 3 years ago. But what happened at Abu Ghraib, a controversy blown way out of proportion, was not. Inappropriate and regrettable, yes, but not torture. Besides that had NOTHING to do with Bush or his administration. That would have happened under Gore or Obama or anyone else. The thing is torture has not occurred in at least the last three years. Simply detaining a person in fairly squalid condition and then interrogating them is not torture. Obama’s executive order did not end torture, torture was not occurring in the first place.

So what exactly did Obama do in his executive order. Well there were three things: the closure of Guantanamo Bay detention facility within a year, instituting new interrogation policies, and creating a task force on how to deal with detainees. Though the most frustrating comment he made was when he said his administration would “abide by the rule that says we don’t torture”. It is not frustrating because I disagree, I don’t and I hope we abide by that rule it is frustrating in that it implies torture has been going on at Gitmo continuously under the Bush administration. It wasn’t. The people there were treated humanely, international rights groups had regular access to observe the conditions. Were they great conditions and comfortable? Of course not, but their living conditions did not constitute torture.

In regards to the closing of Gitmo, how I feel about it will largely deoend on the outcome. If the terrorists held there are prosecuted and locked away and/or executed according to rule of law, it is fine with me. If Obama’s administration deports most of them or just lets them go I will have a huge issue. That would show that he does not take our security seriously and he would have weakened the country.

What concerns me though is that there is an apparent lack of foresight. So he signs an order demanding that Gitmo be closed but gives no recommendation on what to do with the prisoners. So he just created a problem on an issue that wasn’t broken and has no solution. What kind of leadership is that? Sure he has called for a task force to figure this out, but he has been campaigning on closing Gitmo for over 3 years, how did he not create a solution in that time? What this tells me is this is an act not based on fact or reality, but based on political expediency and making a constituency of his happy. For me that has no place in the Presidency, whether Republican or Democrat.

The Gitmo issue is one that stirs the passion on both sides of the political aisle. The website, Politico.com, has a daily debate on various issues and the current one speaks about this particular problem. A few of the arguments I agreed with, most upset me. But the best comment was from S.E Cupp an author and columnist. She sums the issue up the best:

“Closing Gitmo” has become a dividing wall between the left and the right over the past year, and Obama took up the cause during the election because it would win him favor with his far-left constituents. “Closing Gitmo” is a symbol of that polarizing “choice between our safety and our ideals,” as Obama said in his inaugural speech. But “closing Gitmo” is really just a red herring. Close it...who cares? The real issue, of course, is what next? Barack Obama’s offered no real-world solutions as to how to deal with enemy combatants and suspected terrorists. Canada just turned Bill Ayers away at the border...if we think our allies are going to take our detainees, we’re crazy. “Closing Gitmo” is the easy part. What’s next is what really matters.

She is absolutely right. Gitmo is a red herring. It is just a symbolic gesture. What happens with the detainees is key. Do they get sent to another country that happens to be an ally? Not a chance, Most likely they will be sent to a facility in the United States. But what states’ people are going to want those people near their homes. The perfect thing about Gitmo was that it was surrounded by ocean and Castro’s Cuba; not a wal-mart and interstate highway. What happens if one of these guys gets off and stays int he United States or returns home and then launches an attack against the U.S.? Obama is finished, especially if the detainee either escaped or was released in the U.S.

Also, why do people continue to think that the detainees should be afforded the same rights as American citizens? They don’t. Prisoners of War or these detainees are not Americans. The laws dictating their treatment are not the same as America’s rules for criminal justice. So why do people insist they be given them? It is utterly ridiculous. These people are not common criminals, they are terrorists and the left in our country insist on treating them with kid gloves. It is ridiculous. But again, if they are tried and found guilty and locked away, it is fine with me if they close Gitmo. Just do it because it is the right thing for the country and not for political expediency. Bradley Blakeman in the Politico article stated:

The President needs to get all the facts and listen first and foremost to the professionals and not the politicians, before acting too hastily. The President should not make decisions based on what the public “wants” because the public doesn’t know the facts.

The current detention and interrogation policies should be reviewed and if after review, there are changes to be made, then make them based on policy not politics. The fact that we have not been attacked since 9/11, has very little to do with luck and everything to do with prevention, intervention, and interrogation. The risks of acting politically and at the expense of sound policy and results, will make us more vulnerable to attack and weaken our intelligence capabilities. As far as the detainees are concerned, we need to try them, or deport them ASAP.

He is exactly right. Be deliberate, not haste Mr. President. If you run your Presidency based on public opinion, like Clinton did, you will never be anything more than a mediocre President.

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2 Stars
Sanwali
Shimla, India
I agree with you Steve that people who tried to attack your country should not be set free. However, there is a line drawn between interrogation and torture.

Everyone knows that the Gitmo prisoners were not being interrogated but being tortured to a high extent, which is not right when you see from the human rights perspective.

They should be punished but not tortured or abused the way shown in these pictures...

http://blog.reidreport.com/2006_04_01_archive.html

http://www.infowars.net/articles/november2005/281105troops_rituals.htm
2 Stars
Steve Swint dryflypolitics.com
Baltimore, United States
Where is the evidence that Gitmo detainees were tortured? Is isolated confinement considered torture? Lights on all the time considered torture? Force feeding of those who would not eat in protest considered torture? That is about the extent of the worst things at Gitmo. Those are not torture. Period. And those were things going on at Gitmo.

Torture is having your toenails pulled with plyers one by one till you talk. It is getting smacked in the nuts with ball and chaing (a la ”Casino Royale”), it is getting burned with hot coals, etc.

Also those pictures were from Abu Ghraib, not Gitmo, this is about Gitmo. The actions were wholly inappropriate and carried out, not by Bush’s policies, but by idiot military guards who thought they were funny. They should be and many were prosecuted for their crimes.
1 Stars
Me Enki
New York City, United States
... ”why do people continue to think that the detainees should be afforded the same rights as American citizens? They don’t.”

I agree. They should be treated no better than the Nazi officials that were captured at the end of World War II (Goring, etc.)

What you, Steve Swint, may not realize is that the US did not torture these Nazi officials. That’s the difference between democracy and totalitarianism and fundamentalist terrorists for that matter.

No, there is no need to afford these individuals the rights of US citizens. But there is a democratic need for these people to have some internationally recognized rights. Have you ever heard of the Geneva Convention? Do you know what rights these so-called ”enemy combatants” have? I am sure you do not because they have none.

Thank god we have someone in the White House who is not an ignorant buffoon like we had before. I’m tired of our country being run by medieval inquisitors.
2 Stars
Steve Swint dryflypolitics.com
Baltimore, United States
I agree completely (except for your last paragraph), I am not arguing that they should be tortured. I would never suggest such a thing. What I am saying is that the conditions at Gitmo did not constitute torture, and I highly doubt that in the last two or three years of Bush’s presidency torture was carried out at all (though I do believe it was done in the years immediately following 9-11 and the start of the Iraq war.

You were making a good argument and not acting like a partisan hack until your last comment. Get past your petty and unsubstantiated hate and start criticizing Bush on merit. Regardless of what you may believe, Bush was not stupid, he was not a buffoon, and he was not a puppet of Cheney. Sure he can’t speak in public, but hey, no one’s perfect. Keep your criticisms of Bush logical and reasonable. Resorting to ridiculous name calling just makes you look childish and I can’t take you seriously.
2 Stars
Jake J
Montgomery, United States
For those who think that Abu Ghraib simply represented the ignorance of a set of security guards, you are then unaware that there were likely CIA behind them instructing them in all the procedures.
2 Stars
Steve Swint dryflypolitics.com
Baltimore, United States
You’re telling me the CIA trained some junior enlisted girl how to put a dog leash on a prisoner, make him get naked and walk around on all fours?

They trained them on making obscene gestures with the detainees?

Get real.

The CIA works closely with the military to develop effective interrogation techniques. Undoubtedly in the years at the height of the Iraq war torture was carried out. Primarily in non-disclosed locations in 3rd party countries, as has been thoroughly reported. But the acts at Abu Ghraib were not torture. They were unlawful, humiliating, and totally and completely out of line, but not torture.
2 Stars
Jake J
Montgomery, United States
Apparently some people need an ethics primer to refresh themselves on Laws of Warfare and the definition of torture.
2 Stars
Steve Swint dryflypolitics.com
Baltimore, United States
I fully understand the Laws of Warfare. Sadly, there is no set definition on torture. Some think that playing loud music is torture, others don’t. There is no definition.

I have served and continue to serve in the military and certify on laws of war and the geneva convention annually, I studied just war and the like in my graduate program. I hardly need an ethics primer. I work in this stuff every day.
2 Stars
Rudolf irokoproductions.com
New York, United States
”Bush was not stupid, he was not a buffoon, and he was not a puppet of Cheney.” Steve

Can you provide proof to that statement, Steve? Just one.
2 Stars
Steve Swint dryflypolitics.com
Baltimore, United States
Sure, just off the top of my head:

-MBA from Harvard.
-CEO of oil companies

In his presidency he he had book reading contests on various topics.

He also was very decisive, almost to a fault. He prized himself on taking in all the information possible then making the final decision.

His entire career both in public and private service he made many very good decisions and is very well educated. People who actually knew him and interacted with him knew him to be smart and decisive. I am not saying he is the smartest person to hold the presidency, I certainly think Clinton was smarter. But I am confident in the statement that I made. He was not stupid, he was not a buffoon, and was not Cheney’s puppet.

Those charges were all made by his political enemies who had an agenda to paint. At some point the Republicans will try to paint Obama as something he is not. It is the way of politics.

What I am interested in, however, is what evidence do you have that Bush was stupid, a buffoon, and a puppet of Cheney. I would love to have proof of that.

Not being a good public speaker doesn’t qualify. Some bad decisions among thousands hardly qualifies. I would also like you to point out what was it that Bush did poorly in office.

My list:

-Conducted the Iraq war up to 2007 very poorly and made terrible decisions.
-Painting everything in black and white / good and evil.
-The way the War in Iraq was justified. However, I don’t blame the faulty intelligence on him. EVERYONE, and I mean EVERYONE, knew Saddam had WMD. We were all wrong, even Saddam’s generals (not to mention we DID find WMDs in Iraq, just not the stockpiles we expected.)
- Naming Chertoff as Homland Security Chief
-Interrogation of detainees in countries that have a more liberal stance on torture.
-Not getting Social Sec. reform through. I blame congress equally on this.
-and more that I am forgetting

You can try to pin Katrina on him. But that is beyond ridiculous. The economic problems certainly aren’t his fault.

But what about the things he did well.
-The surge. HE WON the Iraq war. There were like a total of three people in Washington who supported the surge and he made the choice to go against common sentiment and it was ingenious. Had we followed the advice of President Obama Iraq would be a complete disaster right now.
-Libya. THis is the single most significant thing he did in office and everyone ignores it. He and his administration managed to get Libya to give up its WMD program.
-AIDS work in Africa. No president has done more for Africa than Bush.
-NCLB- His education plan was not perfect but improved education; test scores are up.
1 Stars
Me Enki
New York City, United States
Steve Swint, you seem like a well-meaning and sincere guy. I agree that you deserve to hear reasoned reply’s to your isssues, not just crass name-calling.

Unfortunately some of your facts are simply wrong.

1) You say ”EVERYONE, and I mean EVERYONE, knew Saddam had WMD.”

Correction: everyone from the Bush Administration. Unfortunately, the director of the UN Inspection Team said Iraq had no WMDs. This was ignored by the Administration and the Media.

2) Nobody is claiming Bush isn’t educated. Have you ever heard of Cole Porter? In his song, ”Let’s Do It”, he speaks of ”educated fleas”. I think that’s what we’re talking about.

3) ”The surge. HE WON the Iraq war.” This is also another mass media and Pentagon illusion. The war in Iraq is not over, it’s just been taken off the front pages. Read the news, bombs are going off every day. Ask any soldier in Iraq. I’m sure they’ll tell you the politicians are a bunch of liars and the war is indeed still going on. If the United States tried to pull out of Iraq today it would look like the Saigon roof of the American Embassy in 1975. The surge didn’t ’work’ if it’s goal was to ’end the war’. If it’s goal was to provide an opportunity for ’plausible denial’ then it worked beautifully.

4)”liberal stance on torture.” Interesting use of the word ”liberal”. Another case of plausible denial. You could have just as easily wrote ”Interrogation of detainees in countries that have a more conservative stance on torture.”

If Bush allowed detainees to be renditioned to countries that are known to torture people with the intention of getting them tortured then Bush is guilty of a crime, plain and simple. For this reason(among many other reasons)he should be charged, prosecuted, judged and thrown into jail.

5)”Libya. THis is the single most significant thing he did in office and everyone ignores it. He and his administration managed to get Libya to give up its WMD program.”

If World War III breaks out because of Bush’s criminal and incompetent errors in Iraq or Afghanistan then his achievements in Libya will be meaningless. If you really believe that Bush’s record in Libya is the single most important thing Bush did than you must be living on another planet, no, sorry, I didn’t mean that. Just keep on thinking and doing exactly what your doing. When you’re an old man and people think Bush was one of the worst presidents in American history you will be scratching your head and muttering ”I thought he was an alright guy”.
2 Stars
Steve Swint dryflypolitics.com
Baltimore, United States
Go back and study the reports before the Iraq war. The best we could get to before was that it was inconclusive whether or not he had any. But every intelligence service in the world, including senior Iraqi generals thought Iraq had them. Everyone knew he had them and he was conning us all. Even American Democrats thought he did. Heck, even go read Bill Clinton’s statements about Iraq in 1998-1999 about Iraq and Saddam. They mirror exactly what Bush said.

The Iraq war is over, in fact I would argue that it was over after the first month when the Iraqi military was defeated. Technically speaking, we are in a peace-keeping and stablization operation, it was just a really difficult and bad one. But I recognize that is just a technicality. If what we are seeing in Iraq is now is a war, well, I’ll take it. It’s one heck of a peaceful war.

When I say ”liberal stance on torture”, I don’t mean left-wing liberal, I mean liberal in the actual meaning of the work, they are more relaxed about it and don’t care. I didn’t mean it as a sleight to political liberals. Though you make a good point about the ”conservative stance on torture” parallel.

There is zero chance, ok I will be fair, there is a 1% chance, that WWIII will break out of Iraq or Afghanistan. But you are right IF it did, Libya would be meaningless. But it won’t and the Libya thing is massively significant and was massively ignored.

I also think, though am not fully confident, that history will vindicate Bush. Not to the extent that he will be a top-5 President. But he will be considered, largely, a success. Just like we now consider Truman. Truman was considered as big a disaster as Bush when he left office.

But you are right, no matter how history judges him, I will have a fairly favorable view of the Bush years. Perhaps it is because it was during his years that I went from making no money to a very nice living, who knows? (by the way, I give no credit to Bush whatsoever for that) :)
1 Stars
Me Enki
New York City, United States
World War III scenario -
Four years from now we’re still in Iraq and Afghanistan, we’re still in deep recession, and caught on video, a small incident proving racism has not ended. Everybody is sick of Barack Obama. In a surprise move The Republicans choose Colin Powell as their presidential candidate and win the election. Israel having been at war in the Gaza Strip for another 37 weeks at the time of his inauguration, finds its self in another brush war that has now spread to Southern Lebanon and, for the first time, the West Bank (BTW Israel all the while paying the Palestinian Police Force). Colin Powell, to end Iranian weapons shipments to Hamas attacks Iran. The US military stretched to practically breaking fails to take over all of Iran in one blitzkrieg and a front line develops in western Iran. Demonstrations erupt around the world and even US Military bases in Europe suffer from random sniper attacks. European governments protest their staunch support of America, for law and order and quietly look the other way. With public opinion solidly anti-war, an incident occurs and Pakistan and India attack each other. After initial gains the Pakistani Army is pushed back. With the Indian Army just outside of Islamabad, the Pakistani’s shoot off their nuclear arsenal. India fires theirs. Red China see’s an opportunity to do a snap invasion of Taiwan. North Korea attacks. Black impoverished masses in South Africa begin to ”ethnically cleanse” Cape Town and Johannesburg. The Israeli-Palistinian War suddenly escalates into mutual ethnic cleansing, Israel nukes Cairo, Mecca and Medina. Jerusalem and Tel Aviv go up in mushroom clouds. World War III is in effect.

... and when the dust clears Arnold Schwarzenegger will be President of the United States of America Incorporated.

Sound bizarre? This is where we are heading for. Santayana said ”Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” But he was wrong. We’re all condemned to repeat it because of the bozo’s dragging us all down.
2 Stars
Steve Swint dryflypolitics.com
Baltimore, United States
-”Four years from now we’re still in Iraq and Afghanistan” NO, YES
-”still in deep recession” Maybe, not likely at all though.
-”Sick of Barack Obama”: If we’re lucky :)
-GOP Nominee is Colin Powell: No chance.
-Powell wins election: If nominated,yes, but won’t happen
-Israel in war with Gaza again: absolutely
-Spreads to West Bank and Lebanon: sure.
-The U.S. attempts to ”take of Iran”: WILL NEVER HAPPEN, we didn’t even attempt to take over Iraq or Af. We could never do in Iran what we did in Iraq. If our leaders were that stupid we deserve to be in WWIII.

To make a long story short, there are a lot of ”if’s” in that scenario that will never happen. Also, your scenario is primarily cause by the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, not Iraq or Afghanistan, though those countries exacerbate the problem. I certainly think it is likely that if WWIII ever breaks out it will be due to Israel-Palestine.

LOL: Arnold Schwarzenegger will be President. Good times.
2 Stars
Jake J
Montgomery, United States
The whole term ”WMD” was created specifically for justifying the Iraq war. Before that, did we ever go to war with a country just because they had weapons? Every country has weapons. Every country! It had to be a complete douche bag that came up with that term. Bin Laden has not been brought to justice - instead we have two countries we occupy and no central goals. We’re running up debt. We could have just developed a list of names, gone in and blown their brains out and left. Done.

Problem is, all those characters, if they even really exist, worked with and were trained by our intelligence. They came through airports the security of which had just been taking over by Haliburton. I don’t think that was a coincidence. I personally don’t even think that the planes were manually hijacked. I think they were flown into the towers by autopilot...after everyone was already dead - gassed. I bet Osama is nothing but a bunch of pixels on a computer screen. You can always go back and construct a motive and story, even alter the names of the people on board. The location and activity of the president was far too convenient. Even the lead-up to 9/11 was suspicious. I am willing to bet it was prepared, purpose-driven. Call it gut instinct.

It was quite obvious from the language and from the actions of the administration on the intelligence community what they wanted to do. In the years leading up to the war, they kept their diplomat at the UN drumming on ”WMD”. We had the list of weapons we gave Iraq, and we knew what programs they had in place. We kept making them do inventories on dying programs, knowing they wouldn’t be able to find it all, and knowing exactly what they were missing each time they reported.

Then we had faulty intelligence.
The situation on Plame suggests that the administration could have been involved with both planting and cherry picking that faulty intelligence. If they were not, they would not have been so defensive, to the point of retribution. I realize that planting may be a stretch, but the actions of the administration in that time period of processing that intelligence were extremely suspicious. Planting would be the only reason they were so defensive.

Then there’s the torture. There are centuries of legal precedence internationally leading up to Bush’s administration. A secret memo is the excuse for a policy change. Embarrassment follows.

We have mass wiretaps - may have started during the Clinton years, but came into their own during the Bush years.

Basically what it comes down to is a complete lack of trust, justifiably so, of the Bush administration. They did not feel constrained by any laws.
Conspiracy theory aside, their actions have hurt the country by being polarizing, completely opaque in decision making, and elitist in interest.
2 Stars
Steve Swint dryflypolitics.com
Baltimore, United States
Bin Laden not being brought to justice is a secondary, even tertiary, concern. We have successfully limited his and Al Qaeda’s ability to operate (key word, limited, not stopped).

You make a good point about the term WMD. We have central goals in Iraq, those have been plainly outlined and we currently have a plan in place to withdraw. Afghanistan on the other hand is a mess. I think there are goals in place, but acheiving them is difficult. Afghanistan is a different beast. A country full of differing tribes and no real history of central governance. Afghanistan will be much more difficult to stablize than IRaq.

Yes, we had faulty intelligence, but my point is, every country had faulty intelligence on Iraq. This was due less to the quality of the US intel system and due more to the denial and deceit of Saddam Hussein.

The wiretaps controversy was over-blown, but you are right that it was started under clinton and expanded under Bush.

You are right that there was a lack of trust in the Bush Admin. I think part of that was a result of their policies, but another part that they weren’t good at communicating with the nation.

In terms of polarizing, their actions were no more polarizing than the democrats actions in the congress and senate. People love blaming the GOP on the divisions of the last 8 years, but there is plenty of blame for the other side.
2 Stars
Jake J
Montgomery, United States
I’m sure that someone else would get to this, but I can’t let this pass -

”I fully understand the Laws of Warfare. Sadly, there is no set definition on torture. Some think that playing loud music is torture, others don’t. There is no definition.”

There is no definition? You’re using a word in the English language. You have a dictionary, don’t you? Here, let me help you out with one.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torture

That is a fairly simple definition. Fairly convenient for you to pick the least offensive thing related to torture by critics to try to defend the entire practice.
2 Stars
Steve Swint dryflypolitics.com
Baltimore, United States
You’re telling me that definition is clear? You realize that by some of those definitions anything that upsets me would constitute torture. So if commit a crime and get sentenced to jail, I could claim it was unlawful torture because being in jail causes me ”anguish of body and mind.” Everyone one of those definitions can be interpreted differently by everyone. So like I said, there is ”no set definition on torture”.
2 Stars
Jake J
Montgomery, United States
”You’re telling me the CIA trained some junior enlisted girl how to put a dog leash on a prisoner, make him get naked and walk around on all fours?

They trained them on making obscene gestures with the detainees?”

In a word, yes.
Here:
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0909-16.htm
2 Stars
Jake J
Montgomery, United States
Steve, I can get much, much more specific if you care. I know you don’t, so I won’t bother. I could in fact give you a longer history, starting with briefs with senior leadership with the commander at Guantanamo, who went on to command Abu Ghraib. The policy at Abu Ghraib was purposefully done, and the backpedaling of leadership from the policy while scapegoating two people of low rank shows their complete lack of spine.
Here:
http://www.amnesty.org.au/hrs/comments/2436/

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/07/mayer_cia_forced_detainee_to_s.php

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/13/AR2005071302380.html

You’ll keep defending and saying that torture is a vague concept and nobody knows what it is, and they were doing the right thing.

Torture is a war crime. Torture was committed. So what do you think - when the president makes a decision, it isn’t wrong?

Read the links before you respond. Next time think before you tell me to get real, because you obviously are not ready for the truth.
2 Stars
Steve Swint dryflypolitics.com
Baltimore, United States
I have stated many times and written as such that I don’t doubt that torture occurred in the years following 9-11. I am not to naive to believe that the CIA was holding prisoners in 3rd party countries who are more tolerant of torture because it was the convenient thing to do. My argument is simply that the things that we know of that occurred in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo does not constitute torture. Even then I wouldn’t be shocked to find out it occurred there.

The overall point of my article was to state that for whatever reason some people think that the basic act of interrogation implies torture. It doesn’t.
2 Stars
Steve Swint dryflypolitics.com
Baltimore, United States
One more thing, I do think defining where torture begins is a vague concept. But I do certainly know many actions that are torture and constitute as such. I also never said that I thought the soldiers in Abu Ghraib were ”doing the right thing”. To the contrary, I think they were complete idiots, in the wrong, and should be prosecuted, but not on charges of torture because I don’t think what they did constituted torture. I strongly believe that anywhere torture is found and anyone utilizing it should be prosecuted. But that doesn’t mean we should treat all of our prisoners and detainees with kid gloves also.

Ultimately what this argument comes down to is that we apparently have a differing opinion as to what constitutes torture and what doesn’t.
1 Stars
Me Enki
New York City, United States
Jake J, Jake J, how incredibly refreshing. There is intelligent life in the universe!
2 Stars
Jake J
Montgomery, United States
I have a problem with letting those with an operational bias define torture.
In the administration’s definition of torture, you have to come close to killing someone to actually have tortured.

If you’ve ever seen the picture of the guy hanging spread-eagled with wires coming out, you may have reason to doubt that the security forces at Abu Ghraib were the ones responsible for mistreatment of prisoners. How many security forces would know enough to set up a circuit like that? Why does it mirror the CIA practice?

There’s a lot more to this story. Gitmo has had the same policy that created scandal in Abu Ghraib, but for far longer. You use the aid agencies as cover, but that isn’t a valid argument, because if they were to report their observations to the media, they would be denied access from then on. In the cases where they have reported, it hasn’t been good.
See the report by the Red Cross.

In fact, such denial of access is part of policy:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/16/washington/16gitmo.html
This is one instance of violations of the Geneva Conventions.

The problem with Gitmo is that you arguably have quite a few (number unknown) individuals there without just cause. The records are not well kept, many have been released without charge after years of confinement.

Gitmo was used as a location to put people we didn’t know what else to do with. The torture there was not the most extreme example of this administration’s use of it by far. If the administration had wanted to see someone tortured, they would simply export them to Uzbekistan, which would do things as bad as boiling people alive. Therefore, you could argue that with Gitmo you have people the administration really didn’t have much interest in, and the poor treatment was just a reflection of cruel policy makers.

I’m sure you have an extreme definition of torture. I’m not sure it’s good for your case to force people to learn all the vagaries of the definition. In the end, you have an administration which is still culpable, because by any definition, the administration is directly responsible for torture.

Here’s another definition:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/torture/
1 Stars
Me Enki
New York City, United States
@ Steve Swint, I decided to star all of your comments, not because I agree with you but because I think this thread is important enough for more people to see and read.

That said, I really don’t believe anyone is going change their minds because of this thread. You have your political position and We have ours and no matter what the evidence is you’re not likely to change. You do admit that ”If our leaders were that stupid (to invade Iran) we deserve to be in WWIII.” I applaud you for this admission because I believe it is going to come true.

Let me tell you how the media works. An invasion of Iran seems stupid today. Iran is not in the news. We’re talking about these issues in a clear and level headed way. But when we’re about to attack Iran it’s going to be all over the news. Attacking Iran will seem like the ONLY logical thing to do. No one will be wondering ”why did we attack Iran?” We will all be gung-ho to attack, including I would presume you.

The question is not about stupidity. The question is about greed and moral bankruptcy and leadership. Are our leaders going to torture more people to inspire more attacks. Are they going to blindly lead us on a path to world war just to make a few billion more dollars?

I believe that if you knew that Bush had ordered the torture of people you would feel and do the right thing. You would be morally repulsed and disown your loyalty to Bush. But criminals do not normally confess their wrong doings. Nor do I think Bush would ever confess his crimes. So I don’t expect you to ever change your opinions. I also think the Democrats are the same as the Republicans. They’re both creep’s. The LOYAL opposition as they say.
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